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Stereolab's "John Cage Bubblegum" - The Modern Lovers Meets Harmonia | The Spindle
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This time on the Spindle, John and Marc dig into the 1993 Stereolab 7-inch "John Cage Bubblegum" b/w "Eloge D'Eros," with their special guest Mike Schulman, who released this great record on his label Slumberland, which continues to put out great music to this very day. Hear Mike tell the tales of hooking up with this great band—and putting pieces of bubblegum inside the 7-inch sleeve!
Welcome to the Spindle, a podcast about seven-inch records. I'm Mark. I'm John. In each episode we're going to do it. We actually have a guest this week named Mike, but I'm going to tell you more about him after you after we talk about what record we're going to talk about, and then I'll reveal the last name of ours, our surprise guest. So on the spindle, each episode we talk about one seven-inch record, hopefully give you some insight into it that you haven't heard before. We both got into music in the 80s and 90s when seven inches were super important, especially on indie labels. So that's the time we mostly draw from, but we sometimes pick some stuff earlier or later than that, too. Either way, we try to keep it short and to the point, just like seven inches do. So on this episode, we're going to talk about Stereo Labs John Cage Bubblegum backed with Eloge de Eros. I don't have a good French accent. Uh released in released in I uh Discox has this February of 1993, but we can ask our guest who is Mike Shulman from Slumberland Records, who put out this record. Is that sound about right, February 1993?
SPEAKER_02That's about right. I actually did a little bit of research this morning and I went back through my distributor statements from '93 and figure and figured it out. Yeah. What's terrible about release dates for all the early stuff?
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, so many, so few, this is one of the things we find when we do this, is it's really hard to pin these down because a lot of times it doesn't say it on the label. And other than that, who's gonna know? You know, yeah. Exactly. That's that's cool that you still have the records for it.
SPEAKER_03Well, and it's not like in anybody's meet and release dates back then. Like you you're like, I meant to put it out on this date, but then I didn't get it from United until this day. The pressing plan until whenever, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, we you know, we just sent the singles to the distributor whenever we had them, and they checked them out the next week.
SPEAKER_01Really, there was no red button. Right. Um, just a little background stuff. It was recorded in London, April, June of 1992, produced by Stereo Lab and Robbs. Who's who's Robbs? Is it do you know? I don't actually know who that is. That's cool. Um, both songs written by the band. Lineup for the single was uh Tim Gain and Guitar, Moog Synth and Farfisa organ, Martin Keene on bass, Joe Wol Joe Dilworth played drums on the A side, John Cage Bubblegum, Andy Ramsey played drums on Eloja Daros, and then Letitia Sadier is listed as how do you even pronounce that? Seya S-E-A-S-A-S-A-S-Haya, okay. So she's she's the singer on this one. And it it's funny going back to this, there were a couple surprises for me. Number one, that Mary wasn't in the band yet. I I always heard her singing background on this, even though that's just probably doubled vocals by Letitia. The other surprise of when I was looking on the back of the label was that you were already in California by this point, which for some reason I I thought you were in DC longer than you must have just moved there within that past year or so of this record coming out, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I moved um almost exactly a year before this came out, and this was probably like the fourth or fifth release, maybe that I did in California.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02That's cool. But it was one of the first ones that I did the work for in California because the some of the things that came out I had had started doing the production work on in Maryland, and then it kind of finished up in California. But this one, you know, I was like sitting at my kitchen table, like doing the layout with like a glue stick and a roller and everything.
SPEAKER_01Nice, nice. Because I mean, I always the first thing I think of when I think of all the labels back then was the festival, the lots of pop losers that I went to most of that that was Teen Beats, uh, you guys and Simple Machines. And so that probably wasn't that long before you moved, was that festival?
SPEAKER_02I imagine it was really soon. Yeah. I might have even been packing already.
SPEAKER_01That's cool. So I'm I'm I guess I'm curious for a little bit of the background to begin with. You you how much do you remember about how what the circumstances were with this record? Had you been talking to them about I'd love to put a single out, or did they come to you?
SPEAKER_02Or yeah, no, I went to them. Um, you know, it was uh the situation was um, you know, we kind of set up Slumberland to put out records by like kind of our core bands Velocity Girl, Whirl, Black Dambourine, Powder Burns. And um, we didn't really have a plan. We just wanted to kind of each put out a record just to, you know, say, hey, we did it, you know, we were a band, like look at us. And um, but after we did that first round of records, we we thought, oh, this is kind of fun, like things are sort of going okay, we're not losing a ton of money. You know, maybe we should put out records by some people we like or bands that we've met playing shows, and uh that's kind of how we reached out to um Honeybunch and Small Factory in Providence because we'd played shows with them. But then we also just kind of did a wish list and sat down and wrote um English bands that we liked, and um, you know, we wrote Shop Assistants and the Pastels, and we wrote Loop and we wrote Head of David and you know, like some other kind of noisier bands. Uh, because that was no ambitious. I know. Well, we didn't just know anybody.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it's great, it's great, you know. Those are all great bands, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, none of these bands had had put records out in America. The wedding present was another one we wrote, and this was kind of before Loop signed to a major, the wedding present signed to a major. You know, the everyone was just sort of like putting out like independent records over there, and that stuff was like absolutely the shit that we loved so much. It was the stuff that motivated us to start bands, you know, that and like Flying None. And we wrote some of those bands too. Um one of the bands that we absolutely adored and wrote was McCarthy. And um, we didn't really know that this was sort of they were kind of winding it up and the band was dissolving at the time, but they actually wrote us back, which was amazing. Like almost none of the other bands did. The wedding present did, and uh, we wound up having a like a world wedding present show at the old 9 30 club in DC, which was in my mind like one of the best shows of all time. But oh wow, that's where there might feel otherwise.
SPEAKER_03But so any world, by the way, that World 7 Inch is by far my favorite Sumberland record. Really? Like by a mile, like it's I just absolutely adore it. The first one, the red one. Wow. I it's my one of my favorite DC records that's ever come out. I might be the only person on the planet, but I just adore it. You might be. I can't get enough. I I've been listening to it ever since it came out. I like that Powder Burns 12 inch too. I thought that was cool.
SPEAKER_02Um, you you might be interested in some world archival stuff that we have coming up. Anyway, absolutely. So uh uh McCarthy hit wrote me back, and it was their their manager Martin did, and um it wasn't like right away, but um he said, Oh, you know, the band's kind of wrapping it up, but uh Tim and Letitia are starting this new project and you might like it. And he sent it, he included a tape, and it had um the stuff that went on to be on that first 10-inch, that super 45 10-inch. And uh I was like, Oh, well, this is amazing. It's it's it's better than McCarthy, even like it right away. Oh, yeah. I I remember kind of like calling up, you know, getting on the bat phone and calling the other Slumberland guys up and being like, Hey, come over, we got a tape from McCarthy, like from their new band. I mean, you know what it sounds like. It was just kind of like the modern lovers meets harmonia or something. It was just really cool.
SPEAKER_03And uh, it's great. They they definitely burned a hole. That first, those first couple of records uh really popped people's brains, you know. It it sort of prepped them to be huge here in the US. Absolutely. And because uh Yeah, yeah, I got it from you know, we we heard that there was also that the light, the what's the seven inch the light that'll never come out go out, seven inch came out around the same time as the 10 inch and the combo, those two things. I remember everybody just going crazy at that point. Like, oh, what is this?
SPEAKER_02You know, yeah, yeah, exactly. So this was, you know, I don't know, uh this is before I moved. So this is probably about a year maybe before um, or like six or eight months before that first 10 inch came out. Anyway, um I loved it. I wrote him back right away and I said, Hey, this is really great. We would love to put something out at some point if you're into it. Uh, I think he called me actually. He called, you know, Martin called me like in the middle of the night, and um he and he said, Oh, well, the band's got working on a ton of material, like we can definitely figure something out, you know, we could do a seven-inch. What's your fax number? Right. So uh I had to go out, I went out and got a fax machine um to to communicate with the UK bands, which made things a lot better. Um, you know, they sent us uh they sent us a set of demos, I believe, of John Cage Bubblegum and um Elogeros. And um I I said, oh, this is amazing. Yes, we would love to do a seven inch of this whenever it fits your schedule. But they had already put the super electric 10 inch into production and they had that seven inch on big money that um John, you just mentioned.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh so they kind of had like some things stacked up, so we thought, oh, well, let's just push the push it off a little bit. But they uh kind of concurrently um had a deal with Virgin to put out switched on in Europe, uh wow, and which was just a CD release, it was like Virgin France or something like that. And um, and I said, Well, like I just put out my first album. We'd just done the Lily's album, and uh we had the Sleepy Head album in production, and I said, I'm coming.
SPEAKER_03I forgot you did that Lily's album, yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that that was the first thing I did when I moved to California. Like I had I didn't even have an apartment yet, I was just crashing with somebody, and I silk screened all the jackets for that, like on the on the kitchen table, and they're all over the this tiny little apartment, uh hundreds of jackets with like the you know the butterfly, and um that's amazing. Um, so we agreed to do uh a vinyl edition of switched on, which was kind of just like a US thing, although I'm I'm sure my distributor exported them as well. So then we kind of had a plan. Oh, we'll do the comp in the fall, like after the singles have all come out, and then we'll do John Cage Bubblegum in the spring. And uh yeah, that's what we did. They recorded it properly, and I thought it was so cool that like Martin from the Chills was in the band. That was like another like connection that I was like, oh my god, that's so cool!
SPEAKER_03Like when I wait, I didn't know that he's on that. Martin Phillips is on that record. No, Martin Keene. He was Martin Keene. Oh, that one, yeah. That Martin, okay, gotcha. Yeah, but yeah, I didn't make that connection between oh, that's really interesting. And the chills were in England at this time, right?
SPEAKER_02Or were they in the right, yeah, exactly. Joe Dilworth, um, you know, he was a photographer, and his stuff was like always in the enemy. And uh, I would see you know, any cool show with like a band I was interested in, it would always be like photos by Joe Dilworth. And I was like, God, this is so cool, these cool people, like, gosh, they're all so cool. I wish I could be over there and be that cool. Um so that's you know, that's just kind of how it happened, and it's just kind of funny, like looking back because the you know, the production like specifics were so different than like uh, you know, everything was on dat, of course, which means the long gone, you know, the dats have completely disintegrated. But um, it was just funny doing the art, you know. They sent me the the cover art, and it was just like a bunch of pieces of paper, and I had to take it to um like a pre-pressed shop, and I had to actually have them shoot, shoot it photographically to darken it up to get enough contrast that it would really be printable. And then they kind of blatted it out on this like weird kind of coated stock and with and then waxed it so I could use you know, I could cut it out and I could use a like a warm roller to roll the waxed bits on to get them all to stick to the artboard. Wow, I know is is kind of crazy, and uh, but you can see on the back of the record, like some of it is in their font, and then some of it is just my typewriter. Like I just typed out's address and my address, and the and switched on was kind of the same way. They had, you know, kind of sent me the art, but it wasn't LP size, so I had to take it to a pre-press shop and have them shoot it and then blow it up. And you know, I had these gigantic, you know, whatever, like 30 by 30 artboards that were like bigger than my kitchen table, like this kind of like um blue line graph paper, because the blue wouldn't re it was not non-repro blue, so it wouldn't reproduce and they could shoot off of it, and just all these little slips of paper, and like some of them like each letter was a separate slip of paper, and I had to like you know work really carefully to try to line it all up. You know, I think the slight wonkiness was actually like part of the charm for them because they oh totally, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wait, were you teaching yourself how to do this stuff? Or so did you know uh like layout and printing stuff before you started doing like no, not at all.
SPEAKER_02I had no fucking clue. I mean, you know, I would do like band flyers, you know, we would go to we had like a little bin of art supplies and we go to Kinkos and you know, we would take like whatever a newspaper, a magazine, Xerox some pictures, and uh, you know, cut and paste text. I had like just like this goofy typewriter that I was meant to be doing my college work on, but I never did any work. All I did was just screw around with music. Um and we would just like type out all the specifics, or we would do like ransom note, you know, cut and paste from magazines, or you know, the Washington City paper, which is like our free weekly, and I would we would just cut bits out of that and paste them up. So you know, I kind of knew a little bit about doing that. And my aunt was actually a um a typesetter, and she had like a like an actual like lino type, like which is how they did it back then. So she had uh they were like some kind of computer wheels or something. The font format was really weird, and she would do stuff for me in a particular font and just like kind of print it out again on this like waxed paper, um, in all these different sizes. So I would, you know, I would call her up and just read off the text. So I don't know, like I remember when we did the when I did the Summershine Comp C D, I had to read off every artist and title, and then she laid everything out in the whatever font she picked, um, at like 30 different point sizes. So I had all these sheets of of stuff, and I had a terrible time matching it all up. It was so confusing. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_01The stuff we had to go through.
SPEAKER_03I think it's kind of interesting that they like they seem like a band that's very in control of their image and their sound, and yet they just sent you a pile of paper for the cover, which kind of cracks me up. Like, I wouldn't do that. I I send the I'm like, I'm not leaving it to chance, you know. As a person, I would put that cover together and give you the completed cover, not out of any anything other than like I know what I want it to look like, here it is. But it's kind of cool. Did they send you instructions, or were you just left to figure out?
SPEAKER_02No, they sent me instructions. I feel I think the seven-inch was like a little more like done and dusted now that I think about it.
SPEAKER_03Because their visuals are so consistent, right?
SPEAKER_02Especially during that period. And the album, I had the CD to go by, and I think you know, their thing was just like do the CD bigger. So I mean, of course, right. Which of course I couldn't just shoot it because it was in weird colors and stuff. So I I had to uh, you know, again get the pre-pressed shop to help me. Um I think I actually like at sometime fairly recently came across the artboards for John Cage Bubblegum. And oh nice. The one the one absolute moronic thing that I did on that. Well, uh many stupid things that I've done, but um they had picked like two Pantone colors to do the sleeve in. And I feel like it was like a green and a pink, or a green and a purple, or green and orange, something. And uh I went around to the printers that were in like Silver Spring, Maryland, near my house, and they were all like, Oh, the doing this sleeve is gonna cost a thousand dollars or something. I was like, Well, I can't do that. So I, you know, I sent them a fax and I said, Hey, you know, the quotes I'm getting for the sleeve are just completely bonkers. Like, can we do it one color? So they came back and said, Oh yeah, just do it black on yellow paper. And um I sure wish I had done the banto colors now, like it would have been so much cooler. But uh, I was on the like an incredibly tight budget, and I didn't know certainly no concept that like stereo labs can be really big and you're still gonna sell a ton of new tools or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, and I mean I like the fact that it's like an early DIY or more DIY-ish version of what they would eventually become more controlled with, with John, like John said, like their later art gets more and more like very specific, whereas this has a little bit of a rough quality to it, but you see what they're gonna be doing. Yeah, that's all kind of look. Well, that's just my inexperience, I think. And it's great. I mean, that's that was the cool thing about seven inches back then, is he felt like you could imagine that someone had put it together on their kitchen table rather than a corporation had it's funny because I've been going through some of their really singles recently, um, kind of weeding out my archive because I have too many boxes of records.
SPEAKER_02And it's kind of funny to see like I'm holding one in my hand, I'm like, that looks bad. Or, you know, I wish I had done this differently or that differently, or looking at like, I don't like the swirly seven-inch, like the different versions of the cover because the first run, like the ink and the paper, like it turned out to not look great together, but I was too broke to just reprint the sleeves and just scrap the originals. So we kind of focused on the second pressing, and there's just so much variation and so much learning, really. I just had no clue what I was doing.
SPEAKER_03How many, how many did you sell?
SPEAKER_02The the stereolab? Yeah, um I think we did 1500. That's what Discogs told me this morning.
SPEAKER_03That was that was the total run. You'd have to keep it in print or anything like that.
SPEAKER_02No, no. They and they were I I believe that was kind of part of the deal. They were like, let's just do one run. Like they they kind of wanted uh the records to drift into um obscurity a little bit. Um, it might have been 1400. I feel like we did 1100 black, 300 color. That kind of sticks in my head. And then for the color ones as a another thing that I kick myself for all the time is like, you know, we we put sticks of bubblegum in it as sort of like a joke pun on on bubble like bubblegum, John Cage bubblegum genre of music bubblegum, but um, we made it explicit and thought it would be hilarious. And I don't think very hilarious now.
SPEAKER_03Um people still I wonder if anybody has a copy with the bubblegum in it still. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, bubblegum gets get 10 bucks extra if you've got the actual piece of some people must.
SPEAKER_02That was kind of funny because you know, we needed like 300 pieces of bubblegum, and uh what we wound up doing is I went to a candy distributor and they used to make this stuff bubble tape. I don't know if you remember.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Kind of um kind of like a I don't know, like a roll of tape, but it was bubblegum, like kind of wound it up.
SPEAKER_03Oh, they still have it, it still exists. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh my my roommate at the time was uh she was a seamstress, and so I used pinking shears to cut it up because it had the pinking shears had it like a cool zigzag. Yeah, yeah. So if you if you look if you have a copy with the gum, you can see it has like kind of a zigzag edge, but look kind of cool.
SPEAKER_03That's imaginative, very nice.
SPEAKER_01Is that part of the reason I think that's the case is there's a YouTube clip that I've probably watched about a hundred thousand times. One of my favorite YouTube clips of all time, is them doing this in Berkeley, which I imagine you probably were at this show. It looks like it's sort of like in a record store in a basic.
SPEAKER_02It's a record store I worked at at the time.
SPEAKER_01Okay, it was called Mod Lang.
SPEAKER_02And um and at this point, she's in the band singing with them. She is, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Is that the first first US tour kind of thing?
SPEAKER_02It was, yeah. They had come, I believe they had come maybe uh a little earlier once to do um like rock pool or CMJ or new music seminar or one of those things. Um, but that might have been this trip. I might be kind of like unconflating them. Um but yeah, they came uh like when, like kind of around the time switched on came out. They uh now that I think about it, the they did that trip. I think that that was fall ninety two, and I think that was the trip that they just did a few things on the East Coast, and they they played a store at Vinyl Inc, which was the store I worked at. In Silver Spring.
SPEAKER_03I bought my first stereo lab records, by the way. Shout out to George. Yeah. Absolute God among men.
SPEAKER_02Rest in peace, brother.
SPEAKER_03Oh man. Um, no, if I remember this, so I can add to this. So being in Danbury near New York City, uh, they definitely came through that fall for CMJ. We played with them. They came back in '93 to do, and they we, my band at the time, we opened for them in Danbury.
unknownOh, okay.
SPEAKER_03They were, I think that's probably about the data bus, and they were um, they did a real tour uh that year, is my recollection. Yeah, they were they were all loaded up. I think they were just starting it in New York and maybe going across the country from there or that sounds about right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and in that previous fall, they did again, I can't remember if it was CMJ or Rockpool or whatever, but it was whatever the was going on there. It was with Balter Space, the show.
SPEAKER_03Oh god, yeah.
SPEAKER_02At the old knitting factory, I think maybe it was a different room then. But uh I went up for that show and that was uh Belterspace. That was an amazing show. But um Mark, that video that you saw. I that is in yeah, that's in '93. And I'm at I'm actually in the video, I'm behind them like bopping around like a dummy. Oh, okay, cool. I look ridiculous.
SPEAKER_01But that's cool. It's a great performance of it. It's amazing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's really great. They I mean, it was so cool to you know, to finally meet them the previous fall. Like I went, you know, back, I went back to the East Coast to see them and meet them. Um, and I I think at that point I already, you know, I kind of knew like we weren't gonna continue doing their records. There was so much interest in them, and um like big indie labels were there. I I probably shouldn't go into it too much, but like much bigger indie labels were there trying to sign them, and like Electro was already talking to them, and so the the die was cast.
SPEAKER_03Though they were on a bus, it was kind of they were super nice. Tim Gray, Tim Gain was really drunk, like amazingly drunk. Like, I've never, in fact, I as I said, I've seen Flipper drink themselves insensible on stage. Somehow he still manages to be one of the drunkest musicians I ever ran into at a show. Wow, and he he listen he saw our set and he was really nice. He's like, I like the bits between the songs. And I was like, Oh, you hated our songs, right? And he's like, No. And uh so I I it was fun to kind of poke him a little bit, but I'm watching him, I'm like, Oh, wow, I wonder how this is gonna go. You know, they get on stage, it was like they flicked a switch. It remains one of the best live sounds I think I've ever heard. Them just stepping on the gas with that drummer and that bassist, that first band, they always sounded good, but it was like stunning. Like the moment they just went one, two, three, bong. I was like, that's the best live sound I've ever heard. Like the balance, they had every har harmonic level was stowed and in perfect place. There were no cancellations, there was no distortion except when they wanted it. The voices blended. I was just like blown away by that. They just took my breath away. Uh just so good. And he's back down like this, playing those guitar parts perfectly, like weighing around while the band is like completely locked, like like a machine, just locked in. That drummer Andy Ramsey, right? Yeah, boy, what a beast. He was amazing. What a beast.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I have to say, I got you know, I got very much the same impression um the times that I saw them in those in the earlier shows, even and I was stunning. Yeah, they were incredible. And and I was like, oh, that's a real band.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. That's that said set the bar for you. Who do who did their sound? Do you know? I have no live sound. The fucking genius, whoever that guy was. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I did. I think they brought Frontier House with them. Um they and they had that, it was um Willie Nelson's tour bus that they had. Ah, no wonder he's so loaded, which is super funny because he like had like a you know a big mural or painting of them on the side. And when they when they played um in Berkeley, you know, we went out and like hung out in the van. It was just so hilarious, and they're like, it's Willie Nelson's van. It's so funny.
SPEAKER_03My friend Greg was cool enough to go drink with them on the bus and say hi to them and stuff like that. And uh he was like, Yeah, that bus was amazing, it was like sumptuous.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it really was. I was I mean, I was like terribly nervous and embarrassed to hang out with them.
SPEAKER_03Um they were super sweet though, like they were so nice, they were like, you know, and especially during that era, you really did. It's I imagine it's like people who look back on the mid-60s, the relative size of the industry and where it started and where it came went, is like being in a band in that time in particular. If you were just some local band, you had a lot more contact with these people. They treated you pretty much like equals because they were only like they were doing that eight months year before. So it wasn't, they weren't even in a mindset of like we're in a different world. They're just like, oh hi. And like we, Jesus lizard, all this kind of stuff. But then, like two or three years later, as Lollapalooza starts taking hold, the alternative money kicks in, that distance really did grow in a lot of ways. And it being able to encounter all these people when they were just friendly, and you were able to, not that they became unfriendly people, but just just kind of how small it was when it began and how big it became in four or five years, where you know, those people I don't know how to explain it, but you know what I'm saying. Like it's I do know exactly what you're saying. Maybe you would know personally because you're recording, like you're saying you went from something where you faxed the people and called them up, and they're like, sure, let's do a seven inch to like I couldn't even do a seven, I couldn't do a release with this band because I couldn't handle it financially, I couldn't press enough records, I couldn't do enough PR, I couldn't do enough marketing, you know, sort of like SST with Hoosker Doo or something like that, where too much. Like I don't have the capability.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_03And and that happened in what a year and a half, basically a year.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I'd had a, you know, and I had a similar experience to what you're describing because I was in a band in DC, well, world, which I we mentioned, but um, you know, we were kind of like the house noise band for DC because there weren't weren't really many bands like that. So pretty much we opened for every touring band. Um, you know, I can't even remember them all, like Godbullies and copshoot cop and um uh the cows, and I mean you you name it like well, helmet, like we opened for all those bands, and uh a lot of them were you know on Amphetamine Reptile at the time or Treehouse or whatever, and you know, everyone was so well, with some exceptions, were really cool to us. Cup shoot cup, kind of the crappy local band, you know, opening the show, and it was just it did get to be really, really different within two, three, four years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Do you remember? I mean, I I don't I don't know that this happens that much because I think with labels a lot of time, it's like this you send you some music and you're like, this music's awesome, I'm putting it out. Did you talk to them at all much about these these two songs in particular? Because I've always been fascinated. First of all, John Cage Bubble Go is my favorite song of theirs, even though there's a ton of songs I like in the context of albums. This is the one that like just clicks on its own so well for me. And um, I don't think I actually even heard it until the Drag City comp, the Re Refred Ectoplasm one came out. Um, but uh I I love the fact that the the title is so like bluntly like, hey, hey, here's two of our influences, right? That we're just gonna put them together. And you could and you can imagine that we that this song might be what if John Cage did a bubble comp piece or something, you know. You do you have any clue, but any idea behind why they decided to wait how they came up with that name?
SPEAKER_02Or not not really. Um I just liked it, you know, right away because um yeah, like we were all cage fans, and and uh like there was a big kind of a big scene around that music in DC and University of Maryland, and uh like you know, people would have like performances of of his pieces and stuff. There were there was a radio show on WMUC, which was the college station at University of Maryland, and um there was a guy who like would do some cage tape pieces, and he was deadly serious about it. Like he would have the score and he would like set up like tape loops like around all these like weird gizmos around the studio and stuff, and you know, we would just go up and watch what he was doing. It just seemed like when they sent when they sent the tape for this, the data we were just like, oh yeah, cool, like those are our people, you know, like it was just another thing, like they get it, and you know, we're all we're on the same wavelength. It was it was really gratifying.
SPEAKER_03Well, and layering the didactic, like almost parody-esque Marxist lyrics over the top of these kind of this this really well thought out kraut rock pop is such a stroke of freaking genius. Like McCarthy, it's like uh nice try, kind of like stereo lab really realizes in a lot of ways, it seemed to me what McCarthy was trying that trying to get almost crass-like get this message across, yeah, marry the music with like a pure, purely political message as opposed to trying to hide the political message in poetry or something like that.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, it's the stereolab approach very interesting to me in that regard, and using French as well, yeah, and using French as well, which you know, I think is um evocative, you know, and we always made us think of like Paris 68 and that kind of connection. Um I I mean I think maybe I find McCarthy to be a little more successful than that.
SPEAKER_03Oh, really? I mean no, I'm not putting I'm just saying compared to Stereo Lab, yes, no. McCarthy sounds a little embryonic comparatively, not that I dislike him, but stereo blank, I mean that's like poo, that's the pupe pie is gone, it's a big butterfly, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, probably I really love I Am a Wallet. Like that record was like so hard hitting for us. And I feel yeah, I mean the the oddly that record feels like more um authoritative or something than the later one. You know, that like I feel like the later ones they're they're they're more striving for something else and maybe not quite hitting it. Sure, yeah, right, right. Um but yeah, I mean obviously stereo lab, like it they they hit all the buttons, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's that's kind of I mean, in some ways, like Moonshake reminds me a bit of like how McCarthy musically was approaching stuff, like just coming from the same scene, like too pure, like the rest of the stereo. Like, were you into a lot of that other two pure stuff at the time?
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. I mean, I and I I love the Faith Healers, right? Yeah, you know, another Dilworth connection because he he drummed for the Faith Healers.
SPEAKER_03Fantastic band. Unbelievable. There's a band that's completely forgotten that people have no freaking idea how good they were.
SPEAKER_02Like and they were amazing. Unbelievable. Like live their live show was absolutely like mind-boggling. I sort of knew um Tom from the Faith Healers through this guy that I worked with, Alec, who was like kind of part of that like can't like the Camden like garage scene, because Tom was in the X-Men who were had uh early singles on creation, and they were one of you know, like kind of a garage band, sort of aligned with like psychobilly almost, but there's stuff you know, they're not quite like that. But it was interesting, like it was like another connection to to something that I you know was sort of like influential on us when we started. But yeah, I mean I thought two pure were amazing, and of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_03There was they had the they had a boy that first couple years though, every one of those bands was legendary.
SPEAKER_01The Seafield records are pretty amazing.
SPEAKER_03Seafield, Mouse on Mars, yeah. Uh yeah, I mean incredible.
SPEAKER_01We met we mentioned the um briefly there, the the French aspect. Now this is gonna sound pretty silly, but it just occurred to me now. I don't think it would have occurred to me then. Did it give you any pause to put out a record all in French? Or was that just like cool that they were able to do that? Oh, totally, yeah. I I never a second thought.
SPEAKER_02It's vibey. I didn't think about how it was gonna play on radio, you know.
SPEAKER_03Right, right. Well, yeah, I mean that a little bit of an advantage that college, you don't have to think about it like we're a major label, we're pitching this to FM radio. Right. Like college radio still rested a bit on novelty, so that alone they'd be like, ooh, French, you know, and they might just play it because it's you know, it sounds like somebody singing French over Noi. Yeah, totally. And so that's enough to get it played on MUC or you know, wherever. FMU, FMU, or right, which it's and I mean it's just it's also it is just such a catchy, like they're such catchy songs. I don't, you know, I mean it's like 99 Luftballons was popular in German, you know. It's not impossible. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it it's interesting to think back on like kind of like the press reaction and the radio reaction when we put out uh switched on particularly, because I I I I actually did you know promotion on that and sent out like a lot of promo CDs, and um the reviews were actually kind of terrible, like really random reviews. I it's that's surprising. Well, there was always that, like, and maybe you know this will sound weird or bad or something, but I've always thought that there was you know kind of like a slight prejudice against like UK bands, like with in in the American press, especially at the time. And um I think they just didn't really get it. Uh there was like maybe uh alternative press, one of those you know, magazines gave it a like a really scathing review and called it like circus music or something. They just really it was it was kind of shocking, like they that people just didn't really get it because it seemed uh I immediate to me like what they were trying to do. Yeah, it was obvious points. And I think it was just you know, there's always that that thing, um, where unless the in unless the the reviewers like totally get the context, like understand it up front, like they sometimes they just don't really get a record. And right, it definitely felt like that was what happened with this. And of course, I I think some of them even like re-reviewed the record later on.
SPEAKER_03It's uncanny to me in these situations how often they don't get the band when it's in an independent situation, and then once they get on a major, everything makes sense. Oh, well, that just a coincidence, I'm sure, with alternative press.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that that is totally the case for sure. And that's that's so it's I uh yeah, yeah, but even if it if if that record had been on subbop, you know, like I think it would have gotten like pretty you know lavish reception. Right. It's fine, I get it, you know.
SPEAKER_03Like it didn't matter because I think that first of all, the people reading or paying attention to those reviews weren't the people who were buying stereo lab records at the time, anyway.
SPEAKER_04Totally.
SPEAKER_03Everybody around me, we were as like like you guys, as soon as we heard it, uh, we were stunned. We were like, why didn't it's a mix of like, wow, that's brand new, and why didn't we think of that? Yes, it was all there for us, we just didn't think of it, and there it is. And there's nothing really complicated about what they're doing. That's how genius works, right? You find that it just like split the atom.
SPEAKER_01That simple, and what I was always really respected about them is that they took a couple influences and they didn't say, Let's bury them down so people have to search for them. They're like, Yeah, this is what we like and this is what we and it and it came up with any unique thing. But I trusted that you know uh filtering it through our own human brains is gonna make it something different than what the people who made it before, but they weren't they were never afraid to say this is what influenced us and this is what we like, which is really cool.
SPEAKER_02Which it which is really ingenious, actually, right? Because a lot of people's like impulse is to is to like more self-consciously like integrate the influences and you know, like you said, not not not even so much bury them, but try to like obscure them in some way. Yep.
SPEAKER_03That I think it goes a little bit, just to put on my historian hat here for a second, it goes along with the didactic nature of the lyrics, they're trying to create pop art, which means you take knowable things, you want a bricolage of things that people can identify because otherwise it doesn't work as a message or in a context. So identifying their influences and laying them out there and being like, we're gonna make pop music out of kraut rock, we're gonna use garage rock, we're gonna use lounge, later on, lounge and exotica, or or like Dave Brubeck funny time signatures and stuff. They're trusting also themselves as artists that they will they know that they can't perfectly execute that stuff anyway. It's always gonna sound like them. It's just my my sense, like they are very self-consciously. Am I do you think I'm wrong?
SPEAKER_02They're like a pop art operation, in like knowingly, in a lot of ways, it strikes me. Yeah, I I I I totally agree. And and I think in a way, it like looking back at McCarthy, like it's there was a similar approach, but this is taking it uh further, you know, in a more and in a more like personal and iconoclastic way. Um but a similar, you know, kind of bricolage sort of taking, you know, the Smiths or whatever and trying to come combine it with this, you know, like political message.
SPEAKER_01And the fact that they got so much out of it has sort of always stunned me. Like when I first heard them and thought, you know, there's there's a little bit of a sort of A plus B plus C equals us feel to this band. And yet they were able to find a lot of different stuff in that and and still sound like them. So I mean, I never felt like they experimented, but it was never like, oh, this is our country album or something. You know, they always yeah, right, they always stuck to who they were. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03They just well, they just you know, they're like, okay, we did sounding like that, now we're gonna try sounding like this. I think spiritualized does something a little bit similar too, right? Like the voice, they just again it's an it's trusting yourself as an artist to say, my voice is strong enough that it's gonna survive me trying slightly different things with it. Like right. I don't have to be the Ramones or the Kramps, who I love both of those fans, but they did their thing, they put on their suits, they they did it to death. It was brilliant. But I like that stereo lab, it sort of maintains again that that collagey bricolage thing for it to have. Like every time it comes out, it's a little different. There's like a there's a different instrument here, there's different dynamics there, you know, that kind of thing. It's cool that they trusted their audience and they trusted themselves like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think that's you know, in a way, like why I was always a little bit like in awe of them, nervous about it. Like they're they're real artists, you know, and they're not just a band, like it's like actual art and no knock on any other band. I mean, music is obviously art, but there was like an artistic temperament to what they were doing, like a depth of intent that um you know, not every band necessarily has, and even bands I absolutely adore, you know.
SPEAKER_03It's hard to sustain like they sustained it for it's really hard to sustain that focus. Like it is, I would say they had it through quite a few records there in the 90s. I mean, who knows, maybe up until Mary is killed, you know, in the accident. But uh it it's it was a pretty impressive run, especially since at some point you've got to have a life. You know, you can't just they were obviously very, very focused. They put on so much material, they played live all the time. Yeah, it's like you at some point you can say, Okay, I've created the body of work, you know.
SPEAKER_02There it is. What a smart thing to do, though, you know, to make hay while the sun shines. And oh yeah, of course, we recognize that like we have our window here, and maybe was long bigger than they than they expected, probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And I I I also love that they're sort of emblematic of a lot of the bands I loved at the time that they were artists, like you say, they were serious. I mean, that some of their song titles and album titles are really like uh thought-provoking, and and and there's an art aspect to everything, too. And yet it's like this John Cage Bubblegum is three chords, you know. It's like you know, they're not a prog band, they're not they're gonna be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's fun, right? Like it's like the records are like genuinely fun records, they're funny in in parts. You know, there's there's just so much happening there that's that's yeah. I mean, it's art.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally that's cool. Long may they wave. Well, thanks so much for coming on and talking to us about about all this. Yeah, cheers. Fun, really fun to think about all that that time period. And even though it like for all of us, it's kind of imprinted itself so heavily on our brains, it's still there's things we don't remember until we sit down and really talk about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, I mean, there were definitely you know, I I did a little bit of research on myself to try to remember some of the details, and uh it's just in it is interesting to kind of put myself back like in 1992 and you know, like think about like, well, what did that what did I think when I got that dat for John Cage Bubblegum? And I was like, holy cow!
SPEAKER_03Like yeah, you're I'm sure your brain melted the first time I heard of what the fuck? How? Yeah, I mean I somebody did it, it's crazy.
SPEAKER_02I couldn't believe I was putting the record out. Honestly, I was just like, this is incredible to me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they reminded me a little bit of uh we we did this single a while ago, My Bloody Valentine soon really like that when that came out, I think it had a similar effect where people were just like, What the like talk about stepping up your game, you know, really just pushing things further down the line. And it just is so cool to see people like you're saying, it's like somewhat luck, but you gotta be able to do it. You know, you gotta have the the ideas and the talent and the the vision and the focus to go ahead and take advantage. Like a lot of bands would probably be like, Well, we we aren't doing the electra thing, you'd step back from that, maybe because you're didactic and Marxist and it's like but there's a there's a dog that caught the car, stereolab, and they're fine. Yeah, right. That happens a lot of times. People don't, you know, they get into situations and they think they want it and they don't. Stereo lab managed it perfectly. You know, they went through their electro contract, they came out okay at the end. They weren't destroyed by the experience, still making good music, you know. Just kind of interesting to watch people, the people who can manage it and the people that where it all falls apart and they can't handle it.
SPEAKER_02And you you could make the argument probably that like their best records were made like you know during that time.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, well, transient random. Yeah, and Mars Audioc. I mean, but Mars Audiac is so good, yeah. I I my I like dots and loops. A lot. Like I like transient and dots and loops. I love the I love the sound of dots and loops. It's like there's this weird spacey, airless quality to it, but it's like all these competing syncopated melodies. I don't know, man. It just lights up my brain.
SPEAKER_01We have to give a little credit to the late Terry Tolkien, too, because him being an Electra, I mean, the bands he brought there did not have to compromise very for the most part. Luna was the same way. A lot of the bands he brought to that time period were like there. I never got the sense that they were super pressured to be like, you got to get much bigger now.
SPEAKER_03They were and they sold records. They sold records, you know, which is all that matters ultimately at that level.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, um, everybody who I don't know, you know, based on our relationship, who's listening, we never know, but keep stick with Slumberland. Just because we're talking about early stuff, there's still so much great stuff that you're doing now. I mean, I love red, pinks, and purples are like one of my favorite bands right now. I love all the records you've done with them.
SPEAKER_03What what are your favorite new releases you've done, Mike? What are your most favorite things you've done? You know I can't answer that question. What do you want to promote your newest?
SPEAKER_02Promote your newest uh well, if you um I mean I absolutely adore Lightheaded. Um they're a band from New Jersey that we've done an EP with. Uh I mean, I feel like we've done so much more because this EP and well, and the album, I guess we did do an album too. Um it's just been really fascinating to see them like get better as a band, write better songs, play a ton of shows, and you know, like really be able to put it across to to a crowd. It I don't know, it's just really cool. I mean, you've if if you if one follows Slumberland, you probably know that I I tend to work with like new bands, younger bands. Um you know, just try to help like people who are starting out, like get their music out there. I just find that really gratifying. Um, I don't do a ton of reissues of the old stuff. I just I'm into new and I I love to help like bands who are starting out or try to help or feel like I'm helping. Sometimes I'm helping. And I, you know, I feel like lightheaded is a great example that the laughing chimes, these kids from Ohio, uh who I just put a record out by in January, really amazing, kind of like a sort of early flying nun, kind of like kind of a but like the Paisley side of it, early REM, but like with a weird like kind of post punk twist. Um, they're really cool, they're you know, really young kids. I don't think I'm not even sure any of them are 21 yet. Wow, yeah, and it's just awesome. I I love the fact that um the music just keeps like rebirthing itself or something. You know, there's I mean, I I love a lot of other kinds of music and I listen to tons of you know jazz or techno or whatever, but there's just something about like guitar pop that I'm absolutely fascinated that generation after generation there are people who can put like a unique stamp on it, like put their personality into it, write great songs, like every song has not been written already, even though some people seem to think so. Um and it just I it's absolutely fascinating to me. And I I love to think of it as like the label is like this kind of like really long story, you know, like with all these different chapters and you know, these different periods and like the 90s with you know Henry's dress and Rocket Ship, and you know, there's just all this. I like it's interesting to me. Like I guess in a way, like I've sort of created the label that I would want to follow. And that's awesome.
SPEAKER_03That's well, yeah, sure. Great job. You know, you curate I mean your taste, you curate your releases, and and to have a consistent, we're talking about voices. Having a consistent voice means that people can go to you and trust you and be like, Well, I haven't heard this band, but I liked all the others. Yeah, so I should check this out.
SPEAKER_01That's cool. Yeah, yeah, and you've weathered a lot of storms too. I mean, we were talking about lots of pop losers before. Team beating simple machines, you know, they're still have some presence, but you're you've like have really rode the ups and downs and stuck with it, which is boy, there have been downs and ups.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm sure there's some great, it's it's just been interesting. I'm just really stubborn, like I just always kind of feel like you know, my my wife is like, How much longer are you gonna do this? You know, it's been 35 years now. Uh-huh. Um that's awesome. Which is like, you know, way more than half my life at this point. I mean, way more. And it's just like, I don't know. I'm just really stubborn about it. And I kind of feel like as long as I keep hearing new bands that I really like, and as long as I feel like I can help them, you know, like it's actually helpful for them to be on Slumberland and part of the family and part of the story. Then, like, why stop? What else am I gonna do at this point?
SPEAKER_03You know, like for no, but that's a good point. Like, why it is it's like a especially after 35 years, not no knock on your wife or anything. It's kind of a weird question. It's like I'm doing this for life. How did I prove that I'm in it for life? You know what I mean? Like, like you would have ducked out a million years ago. Now you're settled as a person, you know, you know how it all operates. Whereas there were probably lower points much earlier on where you thought, well, I could just stop this and it would be convenient, right? Oh, totally, yeah. But now it's almost like the opposite. Now you've built up a thing, it's like, why should I stop it now?
SPEAKER_02Like it's already developed. I I could give you a few reasons, but maybe that's a different background.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know what I mean though. Like as a project, as a thing that exists. Like you're saying it's you see it as a continuation. Every record continues from the one before. Yeah. Right. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks again so much for taking the time. We're really like to talk to you about this and uh and thanks everybody for everybody for listening. We'll see you guys all next time on the spindle.
SPEAKER_03Thanks for coming out, Mike. See you guys. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01The spindle is produced by John Howard and me, Mark Masters. I'm also the audio editor. Our theme song is by the great band Honey Radio. The podcast is produced by Way Stories. Audio and videos by more podcasts and videos at WayStoys.com.